Ben Keefe: "If I Heard That Riff Coming Down the Street, I Would Lock My Doors"

Drive-By Truckers' brand of fun is a little dangerous, and other sound arguments.

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Few things in life are more satisfying than shooting the shit with someone in the Venn diagram intersection of my two favorite bands: The Hold Steady and Drive-By Truckers. Ben Keefe discovered Mundane Mayhem via my Hold Steady crossover post, he discovered Drive-By Truckers thanks to a shoutout from Stephen King, and he may have just helped me discover my next musical obsession.

Ben, 37, is a writer and standup comedian who lives just north of Boston; he also has a music newsletter, called Sound Arguments (great name), where he breaks down his favorite albums, among other topics. (Don't miss his post about The Dirty South.) Keep reading for our full conversation, including one of my favorite dive bar endorsements yet.

It's always nice to meet a fellow Hold Steady and Drive-By Truckers fan, because while the Venn diagram exists, I think most fans are one or the other. Obviously, we all like rock and roll, and they're both great live bands, but the way that they put on shows is very different.

I've been thinking deeply about DBT recently. Their shows are such a different flavor of fun than a Hold Steady show. There's overlap, in that they're both very cathartic and visceral. I don't want to use the term "religious experience," although some people have; being a nonreligious person, that’s just not in my DNA.

One of the last Hold Steady shows I went to, I left with literal confetti in my hair, like a fucking Tom Waits song, and it was the coolest thing in the world. That would never happen at a DBT show. That is just not baked in the cake.

"I'm so beholden to the record version of 'Goddamn Lonely Love.' Bury me with that song."

But I love DBT because it's their own brand of fun — and a little danger. You don't know how they're gonna play the songs, and you don't really know what the setlist is gonna look like. That's a very cool aspect of the Truckers that I enjoy. Recently, I've been listening to the Live at Plan 9 record.

That's such a good record.

It's amazing! It's so good. They rip through “Moonlight Mile.” Holy moly.

But one of the things I think of often is, what is the source of truth as far as a song is concerned: the live version or the recorded version? For the Truckers, it depends what mood you're in. It depends what mood Patterson and Mike are in. Live, you're going to get something a little different than the recorded version, and that's its own beauty.

I'm so beholden to the record version of "Goddamn Lonely Love.” Bury me with that song. The live versions that I've heard are very, very good and important as a document of this band in that place and time. But I want to hear those keys, that intro. You get dropped into the middle of a song in the beginning.

Can you talk more about why “Goddamn Lonely Love” resonates so much for you?

It brings back very specific memories. I want to say I got that album maybe freshman year of college, around 2007. Having depression and not really knowing it is interesting. I'm just like, why am I sad all the time? And this song comes along, and that first line is just a gut punch. ["I got green and I got blues, and every day there's a little less difference between the two."] So I keep that version close to my heart. And it's so cool to end on that song. The song before it, I think, is "Lookout Mountain”?

Yeah. Which kind of seems like it should be the album closer because it's a big song.

It's such a big song. It's such a mean guitar riff. Like, if I heard it coming down the street, I would lock my doors. Similar to “Sink Hole.” They both have very mean, scary vibes. But “Lookout Mountain” is such a badass song. I would love to pick their brain about why they went with “Goddamn Lonely Love” as the closer.

"It's such a mean guitar riff. Like, if I heard it coming down the street, I would lock my doors."

It actually took me some time to get comfortable and familiar with Jason Isbell’s solo stuff, because I was so ingrained with his DBT offerings, and then he blows up. It takes me some time to get comfortable with Southeastern, which I know is almost sacrilegious to say. I've been lucky to see him live a couple times in the past 10 or 12 years, and he has such a great catalog as a solo performer, he doesn't need to go back and play those DBT songs. The last show I went of Jason's, it was almost exclusively newer stuff, and that's great. He also played a cover of “Just Like Heaven” and nailed it. His band is so good. Derry deBorja, the keys player, he got the tone of the Cure spot on.

How long have you been a DBT fan?

It's been a minute. I would say summer of 2007, which is a pretty eventful year for the band. [AKA, the year Jason Isbell left.] I think by the time I got into them, Jason had just released Sirens of the Ditch. The latest album at that time was A Blessing and a Curse. That and Southern Rock Opera were kind of my introduction to the band.

Stephen King used to have a column in Entertainment Weekly way back when, and he name-dropped DBT, and that's the first time they got on my radar. I remember being on Amazon.com — whatever happened to that website? — and they would offer 30-second clips of each song.

"I mean, after Jason left, it felt like, what do they do? So many question marks. And they fucking nailed it."

The one that really clicked with me was “Daylight.” I don't know where that song stands in the collective opinion of DBT fans. I love it. It's so good. I love Jason's soaring vocals during the chorus. It's such an interesting muscle of his that he uses more nowadays, but back then, it was like, where is this coming from? And it's a very accessible song. It obviously didn't catch on as well as “Outfit” did for Jason, but it’s so good.

Yeah, it’s kind of a mainstream-sounding song. It's one of those songs that people bring up a lot. [Shoutout Courtney Francesca and Bella Steiert.] I think it feels like a sad, forgotten song because I don't think Jason performs it solo.

I have such formative memories with that song, so it's very cool to hear that other people have gravitated towards it. To your point, it's very mainstream. It feels like it should be in an episode of Friday Night Lights. It's also cool to hear DBT's version of an accessible song.

And do you know which Drive-By Truckers song you've listened to more than any other?

I would think it's got to be “Goddamn Lonely Love.” But there's a bunch of number twos. Brighter Than Creation's Dark was the first new album I could go out and buy as a fan of the band. And what a gift that album is! Oh my god! I mean, after Jason left, it felt like, what do they do? So many question marks. And they fucking nailed it.

So much credit to Shonna Tucker, who I think is so underrated. Her songs are phenomenal. Her backing vocals I always loved, especially in “Boys from Alabama,” the way she sings the chorus with Patterson. Her voice is so unique and so different from Patterson's and Mike's, but it's a little jigsaw puzzle that somehow fits perfectly. The way that band does harmonies is so good. “My Sweet Annette” is just like — good lord, you can put that in any generation of popular music and it would be a home run.

Brighter Than Creation's Dark is just a capital A album, and I think so much credit goes to the album artwork. All of Wes's work was so good, but in terms of tone, it hits the nail on the head so well. It's dark, but there's also the bird flying, so there's some hopefulness in there. But I need to be in the right mood for it. Sometimes I just want to hear “Perfect Timing.” John Neff plays the solo in that song, and it should be in the Hall of Fame. That's a perfect piece of music. It's such a tight song and doesn't overstay its welcome. It knows what it is. It's in and out, and it does so much.

"Brighter Than Creation's Dark is just a capital A album, and I think so much credit goes to the album artwork. It's dark, but there's also the bird flying, so there's some hopefulness in there."

“Self-Destructive Zones” I love for so many reasons. It's a song that doesn't sound like what it's talking about, which I really find interesting. That's a song about late '80s, early '90s rock, and it just sounds like a Truckers song in the best way.

I love songs that don't sound like what they're trying to articulate, and I think DBT does that very well. On the surface you might think, this is an upbeat, lovely song, wouldn't be out of place on Exile on Main Street, has some Tom Petty vibes, things like that. And you take a closer look and like, oh shit, this is about some dark stuff, and I love that.

That's very well said, and I absolutely agree. So many DBT songs are dark as shit but you get kind of wrapped up in the in the in the party of it all

Exactly. That's why I'm also thankful for songs like “You and Your Crystal Meth,” because I know what it's about and it sounds like exactly that. It's so haunting.

Any songs of theirs that you feel are underappreciated that you really love? You mentioned “Daylight.”

I think there's just a lot of cuts in A Blessing and a Curse that go unappreciated. I like “Wednesday” a lot. “February 14.” After the album was released, Patterson wrote a little note on the website — I'm paraphrasing for sure — and he said something like, "Yeah, some days I like this album, sometimes I don't.” That's an interesting perspective to have on your own work. But I love it because that was the first album of theirs I listened to that I really paid attention to. Anything off of that album I'll take.

So you've been into DBT since 2007. Are you a person who goes to multiple shows?

As much as I love DBT, I've only seen them, I think, three times. I've bounced around a little bit, lived in Rhode Island, Boston, spent some time in Austin. I feel our schedules are different, or they weren't on my radar at some points relative to other points. There's some tours that I completely missed. I would have loved to have gone to the Southern Rock Opera Revisited tour.

"I love songs that don't sound like what they're trying to articulate, and I think DBT does that very well."

Do you know how many times you have seen The Hold Steady?

I think five or six. They did their version of Massive Nights here in Boston in April. Four nights at my favorite club in the world, The Sinclair, in the middle of Harvard Square. THS were there for four nights, and I played it very conservative and only went to three. I'm coming to New York in a couple weeks to see Jeff Rosenstock.

Oh, I don't even know who he is.

Oh he's so good. I would say punk-indie or punk slash indie rock. As my friend Josh puts it, he’s in The Hold Steady cinematic universe. This is the 12th time I'm seeing Jeff, so I'm getting up there in numbers. [Editor's note: I'm probably gonna be a fan of Jeff Rosenstock.]

Is there any band that you wish you had seen live but didn't get to, either because they were before your time, or they died during your time, or some other tragedy?

I got lucky and saw a band perform a few years before they broke up, Japandroids. I saw them on the tour for their third album; they released the fourth album some years later, and then they broke up. There's a lot going on with that band, and I'm lucky I saw them before they broke up.

But to stay true to your question, I think the Clash, 1977 to '81 or '82, somewhere in there. Good lord, they were so good, and I think that they get underrated as a band, just because we take them for granted. Their drummer, Topper Headon, I think he was a jazz drummer first. Of course, Joe Strummer is Joe Strummer. The way all the pieces of that band fit together during that time period, it must have been amazing to see them live.

I don’t know who said it, but there is a saying that all rock stars want to be comedians, and all comedians want to be rock stars. How do comedy and music intersect for you?

To me, it's both sides of the same coin in terms of expression and communication. That has been my goal, articulating a point of view, whether it's through stand-up comedy or different writing projects outside of comedy. Of those — music and comedy — comedy was the easiest for me. Not that it's easy; it's incredibly difficult. But there's so many parallels.

I've been writing about this a little bit, but comedians are, to your point, huge music fans. All my friends make fun of me for how much I love Hold Steady and Jason Isbell. But if I don't want to talk about comedy — which happens a lot — I can just text my friend and say give me a music recommendation. It's a way of taking a break from comedy and focusing on something different. I think that may be the same for the music world. Like, let's break the tension, let's have some levity. That's the intersection.

It's still a creative outlet, but it's not the one that you toil in.

100%, yeah.

Jumping off of that, you mentioned texting your friend for recommendations. I would love to hear any recommendations that you have: recently discovered movies, music, books, anything adjacent to our world.

I've been reading a lot of John Ronson recently. He is phenomenal. He takes very specific niche pockets of culture and kind of inserts himself in it. Like he interviews Insane Clown Posse right after their Christian turn. He's very funny. He's a British journalist, but he has an essay collection called Lost at Sea, and it's so good. I think fans of DBT and Hold Steady would definitely find it interesting.

And finally, do you have a favorite dive bar?

I'd be thrown through the glass door of the Model Cafe in Allston if I didn't give them a shoutout. I've spent so many nights at a dive bar that on paper should not exist. Actually, I'm not sure if it does exist. It might just be a mirage that takes all my money. It's a crusty, queer-friendly bar that regularly plays Twilight movies on loop, offers its patrons insanely cheap beer and pizzas, and has the best bathroom graffiti that isn't considered poetry. If I don't meet my wife while slipping on the beer-soaked dance floor, I'll never meet her.

Read all of Mundane Mayhem's Fan Mail interviews, and drop me a line if you're interested in being featured: nancy@mundane-mayhem.com.